I've been slacking on the in-depth interview front lately, so I wanted to get back into action by chatting with someone I previously only briefly met backstage at Tied Down some years back: Bo Lueders.
One of the founding members of Harm's Way, the Chicago-based guitarist has spent the last two decades in the hardcore community, also playing in such bands as Double Crossed, Convicted, Few and the Proud, and Wolfnote, in addition to performing live with XweaponX.
In recent years, Bo and Colin Young (Twitching Tongues, God's Hate) have co-hosted HardLore, the popular hardcore-centered podcast.
With HardLore releasing new episodes on a regular schedule, and Harm's Way just dropping their Other World EP, Bo has been busier than ever. With that in mind, we had the following conversation via text over the course of a few days last week in the middle of the band's current tour with Full of Hell, Kruelty, Jarhead Fertilizer, and Clique.
Tell me a bit about your upbringing. Where did you grow up and were your parents music heads? What was your first musical love?
I grew up all over the Chicagoland area with a single mother. We eventually settled in a town called Roselle which is where I met the drummer from Harm's Way when we were both in grade school.
My mom was and still is absolutely obsessed with the band The Who. Like, met them several times, many pictures with Roger [Daltrey] and Pete [Townshend], first press records and random merch from the '60s. I always had it in my mind that they were the band. It’s still true. Proto-punk rock. Their Woodstock set is one of the most amazing live sets ever recorded.
How about your father?
My dad was more of a pop guy, Michael Jackson and the Beatles. I could only see him weekly though. He was a songwriter and recording engineer for religious music, so while there wasn’t much crossover ethics wise, we could always connect over well written music. The biggest takeaway from him specifically was Led Zeppelin.
He loves Led Zeppelin and that was my first big obsession. Specifically, Houses of the Holy was the record that broke my little 11-year-old brain. Mom could get down with some Zep too and she would rent The Song Remains the Same movie and we’d watch it. Along with Tommy or Quadrophenia. I would come home from school and put on 1-4 or Houses and just do my best to play along with my little Les Paul studio. That was good shit.
What was your entry point into hardcore? Did you get into metal first?
I have told this story on HardLore before but found out that it’s like factually incorrect. blink-182 was the gateway for me, and initially thought it was because on an unofficial home video VHS tape i got from Tower Records when I was 11.
I could have sworn that during this video, Tom DeLonge lists off a bunch of influences, including Bad Brains and Minor Threat, and I found those bands from that but to this day can not find that anywhere including in the actual home video, which I’ve since rewatched. But it is blink and NOFX for sure. From there, discovering Anti-Flag, AFI, and Rancid was easy. NOFX covered "Last Caress" and "Straight Edge," AFI did a few Misfits songs, and eventually, I landed on Minor Threat, Bad Brains, and 7Seconds.
Around the time of freshman year of high school, Terror, Hope Con, and American Nightmare were on my radar. Then I was shown a video of Wes [Eisold] from American Nightmare moshing at the last Ten Yard Fight show and that unlocked the discovery of straight edge hardcore and Youth Crew, eventually.
The first Youth of Today song I ever heard was "Positive Outlook" because I was looking up “positive hardcore” on Limewire and KaZaa and found that song. I started the download before school and it finished about half way through the day [laughs].
I couldn’t wait to get home and listen to it. I’m a punk kid first, through and through, but this whole time… Metallica was luring over me like a glorious cloud. I didn’t think I was allowed to like metal as a punk rock kid and truth be told it wasn’t until sophomore year that I got Give Blood by Bane and saw one of them wearing a Master of Puppets shirt in the layout and I realized it was “ok” for me to like Metallica then. That’s when the slow but steady turn towards heavy really started.
What were some of the first hardcore bands you saw live? Did you find the scene welcoming? Also, who were the local heroes at that time that you looked up to?
The first hardcore show I went to was to see Stand & Fight, formerly Impact, which Wrench from Ten Yard Fight sang for. It was at the Darien Sportsplex outside of Chicago. A Chicago band called Time to Die played too. I remember seeing [Harm's Way vocalist] James [Pligge] there for the first time in a grey Warzone shirt. Chris and I went together and met John Caution there too, who at the time played in Sidewalk and formerly Plan of Attack/Hostage Situation.
The next show, I believe, I went to was American Nightmare, Every Time I Die, Hope Con, and Suicide File at the Fireside Bowl in 2003. There’s a picture somewhere of me pushing Wes the whole set for the mic. I was very green and young and just didn’t know what I was doing but I knew I loved it.
Despite this, though, the Chicago hardcore community was incredibly welcoming to us. Chris and I were in a band called Double Crossed who put out a 7” when we were still in high school.
Yeah, tell me a bit about Double Crossed.
We would cover Chain of Strength and Ten Yard Fight, and, I think, the old heads just humored us and took us in. There’s legit a lot of heads to name: Caution, Kane, Smiles, Luke, Warchief, Bernie, Big Joe, Phantom, Hofacker, Clint, Shane who booked and books a billion shows and put up with us being late because we’d drive from school to play a show.
I legit never had a negative experience once when getting into the hardcore scene in Chicago and that’s something I’ll always take with me and try my best to emulate.
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When did you begin claiming straight edge and were there any specific circumstances around that which led you towards that path?
The second I heard about it, I decided that was for me. It was when I was 13, 25 years ago, almost. Honestly, it Ihad a lot to do with Anti-Flag and AFI. Davey [Havok] wearing the straight edge Star Wars shirt in the AFI 7” was like, "oh, what’s that?" I totally fell into it.
I looked up every single straight edge band ever. I would draw a little X on my hand and go to school. We had a group at school who were all into skating and punk rock and they were all edge, too.
There’s some family reasons and personal stuff for me that lead me to a sober lifestyle, which I don’t think is particularly unique or anything but I knew for sure i didn’t want to end up like either parent, with all due respect to them. They did their best.
When did you start playing and what was your first guitar? Who were some of the players that you emulated and played along to in the beginning?
I started playing guitar when I was 10, my dad gave me a white squire strat and I was psyched because it was just like Tom DeLonge. I emulated was definitely James Hetfield. I think anyone trying to learn guitar should learn Metallica songs, including the leads, they’re perfect for getting some solid fundamentals and conditioning in. Hetfield played his shit real low, which I loved because I have goofy-ass long arms. Jimmy Page kinda did too, to be honest.
Once I started seeing hardcore bands, that changed things. Seeing videos or [Youth of Today guitarist] Porcell jumping around made me kind of change my style. Chris Linkovich of Outbreak at the time, now of Cruel Hand and Terror, really blew my mind because he would just do full jumps with his legs out at a 90 degree over and over. I loved doing that until my body forced me to stop.
Yeah, the low-slung guitarist look on guys like Johnny Ramone and Keith Richards always looked cool. What was the first band you were in that played shows and released records? Was it Double Crossed?
Double Crossed was first, yeah. We had 2 demos and a 7” on Lifeline Records. We played the Fireside Bowl. Our parents would drive us to shows with gear in the back. It was beautiful. Double Crossed played St. Louis and Indianapolis and Madison, which was like crazy for us to travel and play. We did a very brief run with Modern Life Is War that went to Minneapolis too.
READ MORE: A Conversation with Todd Jones (Nails, Carry On, Terror) About His Journey In Hardcore
Did you already know by that point that you wanted to pursue music on a full-time basis down the line? With young bands, there’s usually one or two people in the band that take it way more seriously than the other members. How Type A were you about being in a band and making everything work?
You know what, I never really considered it as a career or full time possibility. I mean, it still really isn’t, to be honest. Maybe that’s what keeps it pure enough to enjoy. I remember I was in community college, going to classes with all the other losers like myself who couldn’t get into a real school, absolutely hating my life.
We got an offer to do a couple weeks in the winter of 2008 and it would cause me to miss some classes and I just said fuck it. I was already aimless and knew I wasn’t going to graduate with a degree regardless. I can tell you for sure that it was the right choice for me at the time. Doing what we do how we do it now is very compatible with how I like to live as far as traveling and seeing new shit.
[Harm's Way drummer] Chris [Mills] was the more Type A, I was more along for the ride, which is a common trait in my life. Chris, however, did it and got his masters so what the fuck do I know?
Have your parents been critical of your decisions in that department?
At the time, my mom was not happy at all. All she ever wanted was for me to go to college. But what can she expect showing me Pete Townsend my whole life. She eventually got her own degree so she can be happy. My dad never really cared and is now I’m sure happy to have saved the money. Mom is real happy now, though. She knows I’m doing what I love and in the end she just wants me to be happy, right? Plus, she gets punk.
My mom went to NYU in 1981 and went to shows at CB’s. She told me once that she remembered the Rasta band with the black guys and “Agnostic something” from the hardcore shows but she didn’t like going to those shows because of how scary they all were. She always asks for a shirt and a spot on stage to watch when we’re playing at home. She’s my lifelong cheerleader and it’s nice to have her support.
Tell me about Harm’s Way and the early days of the band. Sonically speaking, your sound was much different from where it is today. Did you guys have a longterm goals or were you just taking things as they came?
Harm's Way started because we were all in a band called Few and the Proud. It was 2006. That band had a singer who was often late so the 4 of us would fuck around. We decided to take James off bass and have him sing, John [Hoffman] off drums to play bass, Chris off guitar to drum, and I stayed on guitar. We just wrote fast power violence songs for the novelty.
I don’t like saying we were a joke or anything, but there were absolutely zero goals outside of making a demo and maybe a 7”. I never thought we’d be a band that’s been all over the world with 5 LPs in almost 20 years.
John was just starting Weekend Nachos at the time so that style was just popular. I was graduating high school. As we got older, our tastes evolved and we got more into heavy music rather than fast. But we all still love Infest and Charles Bronson.
Clint Billington of Organized Crime Records championed the band and was early supporter. Tell me how he entered the picture. Was he still working at Victory Records? I can’t remember. But I do remember Organized Crime being involved early on.
Yeah, man. Clint was crucial. OCR had a comp before Double Crossed was really a thing and it had every band we would end up loving. Sidewalk, The Killer, Plan of Attack, Blood In Blood Out. He put out the self titled 7” and the first LP, Reality Approaches. Along with the Convicted 7”, which was the band that came after Few and the Proud.
I’m not really sure if he was at Victory still or not, to be honest with you, but he was seriously essentially for our time getting started in the music world.
That brings us to another important person in the band’s story: Justin at Closed Casket. How did that relationship come to be?
Oh yeah, Justin is a huge part of this band, and I think he’d say the same about us for Closed Casket. I hope he feels that way at least or I sound like an asshole [laughs]. I can’t remember if Chris was emailing him for the No Gods No Masters 7” prior or if we met him at Sound and Fury 2011 and decided then, the timeline is a little fuzzy. But he put out that, the Breeding Grounds single 7”, and Isolation, which were all a step into the new vision of the band.
Two members quit before No Gods was finished writing so it was just me Chris and James. This streamlined the creative process and, partnered with a new label who was excited and motivated to work with us, was a really happy mix of things. 2012/2013 he had the craziest roster out there. It doesn’t matter what label we went to or are currently on, we’re a Closed Casket Activities band.
When did Harm’s Way truly start touring heavily, whether here in the States or abroad? Was there a steep learning curve for you guys in terms of the mechanics behind touring (expenses, road crew/techs, taking the best tours that made sense, etc.)? And on a personal level, how difficult has it been to maintain relationships back at home?
We started really touring in 2015. We had done several tours prior, usually around spring or winter breaks. We did Europe a couple times and Australia too but everyone was still very much working full time jobs and just doing tours on PTO [paid time off] or often times not paid.
Our first real tour with load ins and sound check and a TM [Tour Manager] was in 2011 with The Acacia Strain, Terror, and Stray from the Path. That was a great learning experience but a tough fuckin time.
We opened for 5 weeks during the winter getting paid less than it costs to fill up a 15 passenger van these days. And that’s not a slight on the tour or TAS at all, that was very common at the time and was totally worth it for us. Just wild to reflect on. 2015 we did a world tour. It started in North America (US and Canada), went to Southeast Asia (Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia), then to Australia and then to Japan.
Shortly thereafter we went to Europe, too. We did two US tours that year as well. That all kept building and in 2018 we did the “last” Warped Tour, which was incredible. I really enjoyed myself on that.
Touring the States in a bus and sharing that bus with every time i die was legitimately an amazing experience. 2018 is when Posthuman came out too so we were really just firing on all cylinders. We kept touring right up until the pandemic.
Since then, we’ve done Australia, Europe and the States a few times. The real heavy touring was 2015-2019. I think we were gone for about 8 months a year, which was pretty intense.
Since we spoke about Organized Crime and Closed Casket, I wanted to briefly touch upon the band’s time on Deathwish for the Rust album. Was it always meant to be a one-off sort of deal? I imagine you had several labels already sniffing around by that point?
We actually did the Blinded EP and Rust with them! It wasn’t meant to be any one thing at all, just a fun opportunity and kind of childhood dream of ours to work with Deathwish. I believe Chris just emailed Jake [Bannon] and that was that.
Being a midwesterner, what did touring around the country teach you about people in other cities/states? Did you ever want to leave the Chicago area?
First of all, I have been on a crusade for the last few years to remove Chicago from the disparaging “ope-ness” of the term "Midwest." Iowa or Nebraska or Kansas city are Midwest, Chicago is Great Lakes. I’m sorry I had to.
Touring made me appreciate a lot of what we have at home. I love the southwest, i love Appalachia, and absolutely adore the Rockies and that’s all thanks to experiences had on tour. I had it in my mind for a while that I would maybe move west for a bit. Colorado, Nevada or even California if possible, but I doubt it now.
I’ve been to a lot of cities all over the world and not a one compares to Chicago for me as far as a place to live goes. There’s bigger, wilder and more exotic cities out there but I wouldn’t want to live there. I could see myself living somewhere else for a little while soon, but I’ll be coming back to Chicago for sure. If anyone reading this knows me, they know I am obsessed with that place. It’s amazing.
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Are most of your friends back at home from the hardcore community? How social are you outside of band and music-related activities?
I would say like 90% are from hardcore. The rest have to be from old jobs and apartments I’ve lived in and shit. I’m a pretty social guy, I like being the good neighbor or regular at my local coffee spot. I love staying in and playing games at home and being a little recluse but I’m a golden retriever man I like making friends and meeting people.
Getting back to the Harm's Way timeline, how did Metal Blade get involved and were you concerned about the pressures and commitments that bigger labels usually expect their bands to tour full on? Did you have a specific person there that you trusted to make the transition a smooth one?
A hilarious story that I’ve told before but it’s true, the celebrity chef and restauranteur Chris Santos who is a judge on Chopped and fuckin' rocks, got us in Metal Blade's ear. He and [Metal Blade Records founder] Brian Slagel are pals, they were sharing an Uber once and Chris put on Rust for him to hear and that’s how it happened. Chris rocks.
There really isn’t much pressure from labels in my experience for bands to be touring, labels don’t really make money off of touring like they may have in the '90s with 360 deals. Again, like the Deathwish move, it was a fun and unique opportunity to explore and try out a more “metal fronted” label to see how that would work for us. I’d say it’s been amicable and beneficial for both parties.
They’ve been cool with us still working with Closed Casket on some stuff and helped us out when we had our trailer stolen a few years ago. A lot of faith was put into our management and I am happy to say that I fully believe they have made the correct decisions for us thus far.
Other World recently came out and found the band collaborating with King Yosef, someone in a different musical space than HW but with hardcore/metal roots. Do see yourself ever trying to do a one-man band kind of project?
Absolutely. I have two projects at home on my computer that are just living in purgatory though because I’m terrible at finishing a song. I’m simultaneously dying to do more music but also way too afraid to show someone ideas.
Doing a solo electronic project is a dream. I’ve come to the realization recently that solo acts have beaten the game. Mostly comedians but solo musical artists too. It’s just you. Comedians don’t even bring a mic!
You mention electronic music. Have you spent tons of money on instruments/outboard gear throughout the years? Also, do you teach yourself all this stuff?
I haven’t spent too much money no. I’m a pawn shop and Craigslist hound. All the synths and gear I’ve literally ever bought it have come from those sources.
Yeah, anything I’ve ever learned about using DAWs or anything comes from trial and serious error or YouTube. Which is probably why I’m trash and nothing has come of these ideas… yet.
To close out the band portion of this conversation, when can we expect a new HW full-length? Does that mainly hinge on work schedules and family commitments?
The talks have started and writing will commence soon. It doesn’t so much hinge on that stuff as it does having the time to get together and do it.
When you and Colin began formulating HardLore, were you apprehensive at all about putting yourself out there? Meaning, it’s one thing to being in a band and play shows, but hosting a podcast involves you putting so much of yourself out there.
Oh yeah, dude, I am terrible with criticism. Any criticism, constructive or not, makes me want to crawl into a hole.
What did you learn by watching yourself in the first few episodes that you worked on improving? Were you critical of those first episodes? I ask since you just brought up being critical about yourself.
Yeah, we recently did a rewatch of the first episode to add some commentary over it and it was rough. We are telling stories in Episode 1 that we still repeat three years later. I forget stuff a lot, I am a very forgetful person to a fault and I often can not remember when or where I told a story and that is something I have to work on personally.
There’s that stuff and then there’s the technical stuff that we fixed too, my audio is like double in the whole first episode because I did something incorrectly. It’s crazy.
What brought on the recent change to running HardLore as its own independent entity?
That’s just to streamline the viewing experience. This way people can find us directly and not have to scroll through other content they’re not particularly interested in. We are still working with Knotfest and are happy to be.
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Check out the HardLore official website for all of the show's links.
The Harm's Way Another World EP is out now via Metal Blade Records.
Harm's Way tour dates w/ Full of Hell, Kruelty, Jarhead Fertilizer, Clique:
5/27/2025 The Masquerade – Atlanta, GA
5/28/2025 Motorco Music Hall – Durham, NC
5/30/2025 The Canal Club – Richmond, VA
5/31/2025 Baltimore Soundstage – Baltimore, MD
6/01/2025 Underground Arts – Philadelphia, PA
6/02/2025 Bowery Ballroom – New York, NY
6/04/2025 AMH – Amityville, NY
6/05/2025 Webster Underground – Hartford, CT
6/06/2025 The Middle East – Boston, MA
6/07/2025 Theatre Fairmount – Montreal, QC
6/08/2025 Axis Club – Toronto, ON
